Jon Meacham and Doris Kearns Goodwin at The Richmond Forum

Jon Meacham and Doris Kearns Goodwin at The Richmond Forum


>>THE WORLD IS NEITHER FLAT NORBINARY, NOR FINITE.BLACK AND WHITE LIE SEPARATED BYCOUNTLESS SHADES OF GRAY.FROM OUR UNIQUE POINTS OF VIEW,WE BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLDBY ADDING THE VIEWS OF OTHERS.THEIR KNOWLEDGE.THEIR EXPERIENCE.THEIR IDEAS.THEIR STORIES AND ART.THEIR FAILURES AND TRIUMPHS.TONIGHT, THE WE EXPAND OUR WORLDVIEW BY ADDING DEPTH TO OURUNDERSTANDING.DIMENSION TO SOMEONE KNOWN ONLYFROM AFAR.PERSPECTIVE TO OUR PAST.AND A FEW PLACES WE’VE NEVERBEEN.TOGETHER, WE SET OUT TO CHANGETHE WORLD.SIMPLY BY CHANGING THE WAY WELOOK AT THE WORLD.WELCOME TO RICHMOND FORUM.TONIGHT, ON THE FIRST FULL DAYOF THE NEW ADMINISTRATION, WESEEK PERSPECTIVE BY TAKING ALONG VIEW OF AMERICA’SFIRST-TERM PRESIDENTS WITHACCLAIMED HISTORIANS AND OURMODERATOR, STEVE INSKI.WELCOME.>>IT IS WONDERFUL TO BE WITHYOU TONIGHT BECAUSE YESTERDAY, IWAS IN WASHINGTON, D.C. ANDCOVERED THE INAUGURATION.AND HAD A SEAT OVERLOOKING THEPLATFORM, SO I GOT TO SEE THEFORMER PRESIDENTS, THE CURRENTPRESIDENT ABOUT TO BE THEEX-PRESIDENT, THEPRESIDENT-ELECT ABOUT TO BE THEPRESIDENT, ALL OF THEM SHAKINGHANDS, TOUCH ELBOWS AND WORK THEROOM A LITTLE BIT.I’M TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF WHATON EARTH HAPPENED AS I THINKMANY OF THE REST OF US ARE.THIS HAS BEEN AN ASTONISHINGELECTION.I’D LIKE TO BEGIN ABOUT WHATIT’S BEEN LIKE TO WATCH THISLAST YEAR AND A HALF.THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT FELTDISLOCATED AS IF SOMETHING ISHAPPENING THAT NEVER HAPPENEDBEFORE.WHAT’S HAPPENING TO US? >>PEOPLE WILL ASK YOU, HOW DIDWE GET TRUMP?AS IF I’M GOING TO KNOW BUT ITHINK THERE IS — YOU KNOW,RIGHT?JUST SAY WELL —>>WELL.THAT LOOKING BACK TO THE TURN OFTHE CENTURY, YOU CAN SEE WHY THEANXIETY AND ANGER AND FEARALLOWED A POPULIST MESSAGE, ITHINK, TO GET THROUGH.YOU HAD THE ECONOMY UP ENDED ANDALL SORTS OF INVENTIONS SPEEDINGUP LIVE.PEOPLE FELT LIKE THE CITIES WERETAKING THEM OVER.THERE WAS LOTS OF IMMIGRATIONFROM ABROAD AND YOU HADPOPULISM.IT’S IN A PROTEST MOVEMENT ANDDIDN’T MAKE ITS WAY AS THIS ONEDID INTO A MAJOR PARTY.WHAT WE SEE TODAY IS ATECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION.IMMIGRATION.PEOPLE IN THE RURAL AREASSEPARATED OFF FROM THE CITY.SO THAT SAME MIX, I THINKALLOWED TRUMP TO BECOME THENOMINEE.THE SAME SHIFT WON’T HAVE WORKEDBECAUSE IN THE OLD DAYS THEPOLITICIANS USED TO CHOOSE WHOWAS AT THE CONVENTIONS AND THEYCHOSE THEMSELVES.GOVERNORS, SENATORS AND MAYORS.>>THERE WEREN’T VM — VERY MANYDELEGATES.>>UNLESS THERE WAS A MILITARYCHARACTER AROUND, THEY’D CHOOSEA FELLOW POLITICIAN.IF THAT WERE TRUE NOW THERE ISNO WAY DONALD TRUMP WOULD HAVEBEEN CHOSEN BY THE POLITICIANS.THE PRIMARIES WERE STARTED BY MYGUY, TEDDY ROOSEVELT.IT WAS HIS FAULT.THE GUY I LIVED WITH EIGHTYEARS.>>IT’S YOUR FAULT.>>IT’S MY FAULT.>>IN 1912 HE WANTS TO RUNAGAINST TAFT.BUT TAFT IS THE PRESIDENTSITTING THERE.REALLY SITTING THERE.AND HE HAS, HE HAS CONTROL OFTHE PARTY MACHINERY.SO TEDDY IS THE ONLY WAY WE CANGET THE NOMINATION IS TO HAVE APRIMARY SYSTEM.SO HE STARTS A CRUSADE.LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE.13 PRIMARIES ARE CREATED.TAFT STILL HAS PARTY MACHINERY.TAFT WINS THE ELECTION AND SOMEREPUBLICAN SENATOR SAID NOW THEONLY QUESTION IF RUNNING AGAINSTEACH OTHER IS WHICH PORT ISGOING TO GET THE MOST FLOWERSAND WOOD ROW WILSON WINS.THEY COME BACK IN, AND IN THE50s, 60s, AND 70s AND TODAY.AND SO THE PEOPLE SPOKE ANDRESPONDED TO MAKE AMERICA GREATAGAIN.THE MESSAGE OF ANTI-IMMIGRATIONAND FREE TRADE, ETC.>>SO YOU HEAR RESONANCES OF THEPAST AS DIFFERENT AS IT MAY SEEMTO SOME OF US NOW.>>WHEN DORIS AND I TRIED TO ASKQUESTIONS TO OUR DEAD SUBJECTSPEOPLE GET WORRIED.>>I REMEMBER TALKING.ELEANOR, JUST FORGET HE HAD ANAFFAIR AND JUST BE NICER TO HER.>>MORE GOSSIP ABOUT DEADPEOPLE.>>DORIS’S LIFE IS THE SHININGMEETS C-SPAN.>>IT’S IMPOSSIBLE.>>WE DO INTERVENTIONS.I DO.I WAS WRONG ABOUT TRUMP.I THOUGHT WE’RE ENTERING AMOMENT LIKE THE FAMOUS ESSAYPUBLISHED AT THE COVER STORY INHARPER’S MAGAZINE IN OCTOBER,1964.IN WHICH HOFFSTED AND CONSPIRACYTHEORYS AS JEFFERSON THOUGHTHAMILTON WAS TRYING TO SELL USOUT TO THE BRITISH.AND THE MESSAGE TO JEFFERSON,MEET ME OUT BACK.JUST MY LUCK, IT’S THE OTHERGUY.>>GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE OFNNL ENGINEER CALLED AND ASKED MESWEETLY TO COME TO LUNCH INTRENTON TO TALK ABOUT JEFFERSON.HAPPY TO DO IT HE SAID I’M MOREOF A HAMILTONIN.I SAID THAT IS GREAT, BUT MY GUYDIDN’T GET SHOT IN JERSEY.THE DAMNEDEST THING HAPPENED.I COULDN’T GET BACK INTO THECITY.SO ANYWAY.>>SEE HOW LEARNED THIS AUDIENCEIS?ALL OF THESE STORIES, YOU GETTHEM.>>THAT WAS BEFORE GOVERNORCHRIS CHRISTIE BECAME PATTYHEARST.SO.BACK TO RICHARD HOFFSTEDER.>>1964, OCTOBER.PARANOID STYLE.>>YOU HAVE THESE MOMENTS WHERETHERE IS A SENSE FROM ADISPOSSESSED PART OF THE PUBLICTHAT BELIEVES THAT THIS IS TOUSE A CURRENT PHRASE, RIGGEDAGAINST THEM.BAVARIAN ILLUMINATI OF THE EARLYREPUBLIC TO THE JOHN HEARSTSOCIETY IN 1964 WHICH IS WHATTHE OCCASION WAS.AND WHAT TENDS TO HAPPEN IS THATTHIS PARANOID ENERGY, THISPOPULIST ENERGY GETS ABSORBED BYTHE MAJOR PARTY USUALLY BEFOREIT CAN GET TOO FAR OUT OFCONTROL.SO GEORGE WALLACE, THEREPUBLICANS TOOK THAT ENERGYAWAY FROM HIM.THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, FRANKLY,WHEN IT WAS A PARTY OFSEGREGATIONISTS TOOK THIS ENERGYAWAY FROM STROM THURMOND WHO RANIN 1948.ROSS PERO, YOU KNOW THERE IS ALITTLE MORE POPULISM.THAT DIDN’T HAPPEN THIS TIME.TO SOME EXTENT, TRUMP’S TRIUMPHWAS THE FIRST REPORTED CASE OF AHIJACKER BOARDING A PLANE,HAVING PASSENGER SIDE WITHIN.>>DO YOU MAKE THESE THINGS UP?>>IT REALLY IS.TO ME, IT’S LESS BROADLYHISTORICAL.TWO NUMBERS EXPLAIN WHY DONALDTRUMP BECAME PRESIDENT OF THEUNITED STATES YESTERDAY.ONE IS 17.WHEN DORIS’S FRIEND LYNDONJOHNSON WAS PRESIDENT IN 1965,77% OF AMERICAN PEOPLE TRUSTEDTHE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT.77.TODAY, THAT NUMBER IS 17%.SECOND NUMBER IS 130,000.$130,000 IS WHAT JOE BIDEN’SMIDDLE CLASS TASK FORCE SAID WASTHE HOUSEHOLD INCOME NEEDED TOLIVE A CLASSIC POST WORLD WAR IIMIDDLE CLASS LIFE.IN THIS COUNTRY, HOUSEHOLDINCOME IS $55,700.IN THAT MISSING GAP, OF BOTHTRUST AND INCOME, YOU HADGASOLINE ON THE FLOOR AND INTHIS REMARKABLE CULTURAL FIGURE,REMEMBER, TRUMP IS A CULTURALFIGURE.NOT A POLITICAL ONE, FIRST.HE IS THE MATCH THAT WENT ON THEFLOOR.AND THAT IS WHAT WE’RE LIVINGWITH.>>WE’VE RESOLVED THE WHOLEPROBLEM.WE’RE GOING TO GO NOW.>>THANK YOU, I REALLYAPPRECIATE THAT.I APPRECIATE THOSE INSIGHTS.WE’RE SITTING HERE TRYING TO PUTPRESIDENT TRUMP INTO HISTORICALCONTEXT.DO YOU THINK THAT PRESIDENTTRUMP HAS A DEEP APPRECIATION OFHISTORY?>>WELL —>>THANK YOU FOR COMING.>>THERE HAVE BEEN RECENTARTICLES SAYING THAT HE DOESN’TREALLY READ HISTORY AND DOESN’TREAD A LOT.TEDDY ROOSEVELT SAID BOOKS ARETHE GREATEST COMPANIONS.YOU UNDERSTAND HUMAN NATURE INPART HAIRY TRUMAN NEVER WENT TOCOLLEGE BUT HE READ HISTORY.YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE BY READINGABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT WENTBEFORE AND THEIR STRUGGLE THAT’SYOU’RE GOING TO LEARN SOMETHING.YOU’RE GOING TO GROW FROM THATJUST AS WE GROW FROM OUR PARENTSAND GRANDPARENTS, YOU HOPEFULLYGROW FROM IT AND DON’T HAVE TOSTART OVER AGAIN.THE OTHER DAY THERE WAS APICTURE OF TRUMP’S DESK.THIS SURPRISED MY, UNTIL, I’LLTELL YOU WHAT HAPPENED.THERE WAS MAGAZINES ON THERE ANDTWO COPIES OF THE NEW BOOK“UNPREDICTABLE” AND UNDERNEATH,TEAM OF RIVALS.A REPORTER SAYS THIS ISEXCITING.HE SAID SOMEONE GAVE IT TO HIMAS A GIFT BUT HE’S NOT ACTIVELYREADING IT.JUST TO BE FAIR TO HIM.>>HE DOES READ HISTORY.THERE ARE 30 YEARS OF MAGAZINECOVERS.>>ON THE DESK.>>WITH HIS FACE.30 YEARS.THAT IS A LOT OF HISTORY.>>I WAS GOING TO SAY TO BE FAIRTO HIM, HE SAYS HE LEARNS RATHERTHROUGH CONVERSATION.IN THE PRESIDENCY HE RAN MOSTLYMYSTERIES AT NIGHT.HE DIDN’T READ A LOT OF BOOKSDURING HIS TIME BUT HE WAS ABLETO ABSORB CONVERSATIONS WITHPEOPLE.THAT IS HOW HE LEARNED.HE WAS A GREAT QUESTIONER.PEOPLE ARE TALKING TO HIM ANDGIVING HIM INFORMATION AND HAVEEXPERTS IN THE FIELD THAT HE CANLEARN FROM THEM.>>I WENT TO SEE MR. TRUMP.LAST MAY TO TALK ABOUT JUSTTHIS.AND WENT TO TRUMP TOWER.HE WAS VERY GRACIOUS.IT WAS LIKE AN ADMIRAL MARYPOPPINS.HE HAD A HAT AND FIRING OFFCANNONS.SITTING BEHIND THE DESK ANDTHERE ARE GOLF TROPHIESEVERYWHERE.I RECOGNIZE THOSE BECAUSE I HAVENONE.AND THERE ARE THE OLD MAGAZINECOVERED, FRAMED AND COVERS OFHIS THAT ARE ALL OVER.THIS IS A — REALLY — HEDOESN’T READ HISTORY.BUT HIS BASIC VIEW IS, AND HESAID IT THIS AFTERNOON VISITINGGEORGE HW BUSH CENTER OFINTELLIGENCE AT LANGLY WHEN HEWENT TO SEE THE CIA TODAY HE’S ASMART PERSON.HE BELIEVES HE IS INTELLECTUALLYEQUIPPED, LARGELY BY INSTINCT,TO DO THIS JOB.AND IF YOU DO WHAT WE DO FOR ALIVING, THAT SEEMS UNLIKELY.HIS POINT, WHICH IS A PUREPOPULIST VIEW IS IF THE EXPERTSWERE SO SMART, WHY WON’T THEWORLD BE IN BETTER SHAPE?IF THE PEOPLE WHO READ HISTORYWERE SO WELL INFORMED WHY DO WEHAVE THAT INCOME GAP?WHY DO WE HAVE A SITUATION INTHE MIDDLE EAST THAT WE HAVE?SO WHY DON’T YOU BELIEVE SOMEONEWHO BELIEVES, JUST TOTALLY LIVESIN THE MOMENT.I NEVER MET A PERSON THAT LIVESIN THE MOMENT LIKE THIS.IT’S CABLE NEWS, WHATEVER COMESACROSS TWITTER.LIKE AN OPEN SYNAPSE.AND WE HAVE TO SOME EXTENTRESPECT THE FACT THE RIGHTNUMBER OF VOTERS MADE THISDECISION.SO HE SAYS STONE WALL JACKSONHAD BEEN IN CHARGE INSTEAD OFGENERAL LEE.SORRY.YOU KNOW?WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT?WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IFFOREST HAS BEEN UNLEASHED MORE.AND HE TOLD ME HE ONCE CANCELLEDA GOLF MATCH BECAUSE THERE WAS AMARATHON ON OF KEN’S CIVIL WAR.AND IF YOU KNOW TRUMP IT’SPRETTY MUCH THE ULTIMATESACRIFICE.I CALLED HIM BACK TO SEE IFTHERE IS ANYTHING.HAVE YOU READ DORIS AND READDAVID McCULLAUH?HE TOLD ME HE READ BILLO’REILLY’S BOOKS.>>THAT IS THE ASSASSINATIONBOOKS.>>YES.THE KILLING BOOKS.HE READ A BOOK ABOUT THE RISE OFISIS AND ONE NEGATIVE PARTISANBOOK ABOUT HITLER.THAT IS IT.HE BELIEVES HE’S A NATURAL.HE COMPARED HIMSELF TO LYDIA KOSAYING SHE WAS ONCE ASKED ON AGOLF CHANNEL INTERVIEW, WHATYOUR SWING THOUGHTS?SHE SAID I DON’T KNOW, I JUSTSWING.AND COMPARED TO BABE RUTH, HEY,BABE, HOW DO YOU HIT THE LONGBALL?HE REPLIED I DON’T KNOW, I JUSTSWING AT IT.THAT IS ME.HE REPEATED THOSE POINTS ININTERVIEWS.WE HAVE MOVED IN THE TYPICALAMERICAN WAY OF MOVING FROM ONEGUARDRAIL TO ANOTHER AND HAVEMOSTED FROM THE MOSTINTELLECTUAL PRESIDENT,CERTAINLY, I WOULD ARGUE, SINCEJEFFERSON SO VALIDLY THE LEASTINTELLECTUAL PRESIDENT YOU CANIMAGINE.HE WOULD ACCEPT THAT AND SAYYES.>>THAT IS A GOOD THING.YES.>>ARE WE STILL WITHIN THEGUARDRAILS?>>WHAT WORRIES ME IS THAT ITWAS ONE THING DURING THECAMPAIGN.HE’D GET ANGRY WITH SOMEBODY TOBE ABLE TO PUT OUT TWEETS THATCOARSENED DIALOGUE TERRIBLY.IF THAT CONTINUES YOU’RE GOINGTO HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO MANAGEAND STRESSFUL TIMES, YOURNEGATIVE EMOTIONS.UNLESS HE CAN FIGURE OUT A WAYTO DO THAT IF HE TWEETS OUTANGRY THINGS DIALOGUE OF THECOUNTRY COULD GET US OVER THOSEGUARDRAILS.I MEAN, I KEEP WISHING HE CANHAVE A FAKE TWITTER ACCOUNT.WHENEVER FEELING GOOD, HE COULDBE THE REAL ONE AND HE’LL TALKTO HIS PEOPLE AND IT WILL BEGREAT.LINCOLN HAD THIS HOT LETTERTHING HE WOULD DO.HE WOULD WRITE A LETTER AND PUTIT ASIDE AND NEVER SEND IT.AND SO UPSET HE WROTE A LONGLETTER SAYING YOU DIDN’T DO WHATWE ASKED YOU TO DO.THE WAR COULD HAVE BEEN OVERSOON.HE KNEW IT WOULD PARALYZE THEGENERAL IN THE FIELD.THEN, UNDERNEATH NOTATION, NEVERSENT, NEVER SIGNED AND LINCOLNDID THAT REGULARLY.WHEN ROOS FELT CAME IN, A YOUNGSPEECH WRITER CAME IN SAYINGHORRIBLE THINGS ABOUT SOMEISOLATIONIST SAYING IF YOU’REGOING TO DO THAT, HE SAID DON’TWORRY.SECOND DRAFT IS THERE.HE GOT IT OUT OF HIS SYSTEM.I INTERVIEWED PRESIDENT OBAMAFOR AN EXIT INTERVIEW WITH“VANITY FAIR” I WAS TELLING HIMABOUT LINCOLN’S HOT LETTERS ANDSAID DO YOU THINK OF DOING THAT?HE SAID I DO IT ALL THE TIME.I SAID I’M WRITING THINGS DOWNAND LETTERS TO THE PEOPLE AND ICRUMPEL THEM UP AND PUT THEM INTHE WASTE BASKET.THAT SHOWS SELF REFLECTION ANDAWARENESS OF YOUR WEAKNESSES ANDTHAT YOU UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE TOHAVE A GOVERNOR ON YOUR SELF.CONQUERING YOURSELF IS PROBABLYTHE MOST-IMPORTANT THING.UNLESS HE CAN, I WORRY ABOUTWHERE THESE GUARDRAILS MIGHT BE.>>ONE EXPLANATION FOR WATERGATE IS THAT NIXON SAID GO BOMBBROOKINGS OR KILL DEMOCRATS ORWHATEVER HE SAID AFTER A COUPLESIPS OF SCOTCH, YOU’RE, HR’S JOBWAS JUST NOT TO DO ANYTHING.>>RIGHT.>>THERE IS A THEORY THAT JUST.>>THIS IS HENRY KISSIN GER’SFAMOUS LINE.AND YOU’RE REMINDING ME, I WISHI CAN REMEMBER WHICH COMEDIAN,BUT TRUMP WOULD BE TALKING ABOUTTWITTER THEN DISCOVER TWEETSWERE PUBLIC.I’D LIKE TO BRING ANOTHERPRESIDENT INTO THE PICTURE,YOU’RE A BIOGRAPHER OF ANDREWJACKSON.WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN PEOPLEBEGAN MAKING THE COMPARISONBETWEEN DONALD TRUMP AND ANDREWJACKSON?>>WELL, THERE IS THE HAIR.>>THE MOMENT IS JACKSONIN.JACKSON WAS THE FIRST AMERICANPRESIDENT NOT A VIRGINIA PLANTEROR ADAMS FROM MASSACHUSETTS.HENRY CLAY COINED THE PHRASE“SELF MADE MAN” IN THE AGE OFJACKSON.HE WAS THAT.FROM THE LOWEST REACHES OF WHITESOCIETY, HE WAS AN ORPHAN, HELOST HIS MOTHER AND BROTHERS INTHE REVOLUTION.AND WHEN HE CAME TO WASHINGTONIN 1929, HOWEVER, HE CAME AS AFORMER SENATOR, JUDGE, FORMERPRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE.SOMEONE, WHO, AS DORIS IS JUSTSAYING UNDERSTOOD HIS OWNWEAKNESSES.HE UNDERSTAND HE HAD A TEMPER.HE HAD TWO BULLETS LONLED IN HIMWHEN HE TOOK THE OATH OF OFFICE.ONE KEY THING ABOUT JACKSON ISTO REMEMBER IS IN THOSE DUELS HEFIRED THE SECOND SHOT.>>DID HE ASSUME THEY WON’T BEGOOD SHOTS?>>OR WILLING TO TAKE THE PAIN.>>HE WANTED TO MAKE SURE HEKILLED THE OTHER GUY.>>ONE MOMENT IS THIS BOOTFILLED WITH BLOOD AS HE KILLED AMAN, JOHN DICTINSON WHO ATTACKEDHIS WIFE, RACHEL.THE ATTACK WAS TRUE.TO ME, GREAT STORY ABOUT JACKSONTHAT SEPARATES IT FROM THETRUMP, JACKSONIN COMPARISONSWHICH BY THE WAY ARE RECENT, INTHAT INTERVIEW, I DID WITH HIM,JACKSON NEVER CAME UP.IF MENTIONING HIM, HE WOULD HAVETHOUGHT I WAS TALKING ABOUTREGGIE.I DON’T THINK WE WOULD HAVE HADA LOT OF — A LOT THERE.>>WHAT ARE THE PARALLELSBETWEEN DONALD TRUMP AND REGGIEJACKSON?>>SO I THINK THAT JACKSON INWINTER 1832, 33 WE HAD A SHEDOWN WITH SOUTH CAROLINA.AND I KNEW THAT.>>JACKSONIN.>>YOU KNOW, STEVE CALHOUN HADBEEN HIS VICE PRESIDENT.JACKSON SAID HIS RECRUITS ISTHAT HE HAD NOT HUNG HENRY CLAYAND SHOT JOHN C CALHOUN, NOBODYFELT THAT WAY ABOUT THE VICEPRESIDENT AGAIN UNTIL JOHNMCCAIN.SO THIS IS A FREE ONE.IT’S A FREE ONE.OKAY?THAT IS JUST A FREEBIE ONINAUGURATION WEEKEND.SOUTH CAROLINA WANTED THE RIGHTTO NULL YI FI FEDERAL LAW.JACKSON POUNDED THE DESK.THREATENED, I’LL HANG THE FIRSTNULL FIEER.I’LL WALK INTO SOUTH CAROLINAWITH 10,000 MEN.YOUR GOVERNOR SIDED WITHJACKSON.SO, HE’S MAKING ALL OF THE RIGHTNOISES ABOUT WAR LIFE, FITTING,PLAYING THE TYPE.YOU KNOW, AMERICAN BONAPRTE.WHAT IS HE DOING ALL NIGHT?WRITING LETTERS TO HIS MAN ONTHE GROUND SAYING WHATEVER YOUDO, DON’T MAKE THE FIRST MOVE.IF THERE IS TO BE CIVIL WAR, WECAN NOT BE AGGRESSOR.HE WAS MANAGING AND MARSHALLINGHIS TEMPER TO GET TO THE RIGHTPLACE AND WE GOT TO THE RIGHTPLACE.HE GAVE US 30 YEARS TO FORM WHATIS CALLED MYSTIC BOARDS OFMEMORY.THE JACKSON I BELIEVE IN ISSOMEONE WHO HAD A TEMPER BUTDEVELOPED A TEMPERAMENT.>>TEMPERAMENT CAME UP IN THEELECTION.PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN THINGSWE’RE LOOKING AT IN THE VERYBEGINNING.WHAT KIND OF TEMPERAMENT ALEADER BRINGS TO ANY LEADERSHIPJOB MEANS THEIR BASICDISPOSITION IN LIFE.ARE THEY ABLE TO MEET WITHPEOPLE FROM OTHER PLACES? TOCONTROL THEIR EMOTIONS?A LOT OF TIMES THAT COMES FROMHAVING BEEN THROUGH DIFFICULTIESTHEMSELVES.WHEN ASKED HE SAID I HAVE THEBEST TEMPERAMENT OF ANYONE INPRESIDENCY BECAUSE I ALWAYS WIN.THAT IS NOT TRUE.OF ALL OF THE LEADERS I HAVESTUDIED, THEY NOT ONLY LOST BUTSUFFERED AND FROM THAT SUFFERINGROOS FELT, FRANKLIN BECAME AMUCH-BETTER PRESIDENT AFTERGOING THROUGH POLIO.HE KNEW WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO HAVEFATE DEAL YOU AN UNKIND HAND.SO HE CAN DEAL WITH PEOPLE IN AMUCH DEEPER WAY.THERE IS HUMILITY HE LEARNEDFROM THAT.IT’S NOT EASY TO SEE MR. TRUMPHAS.I WAS THINKING ABOUT GEORGEWASHINGTON.HE CAME TO HIS INAUGURATION.AND HE HE SAID HE’S FEELING LIKEHE’S GOING TO HIS EXECUTION.SAYING DO I HAVE THE POLITICALSKILL AND ABILITY TO DEAL WITHTHE OCEAN OF DIFFICULTIES I’MGOING TO FACE?AND I’M RESTING MY NAME AND OURCOUNTRY’S NAME ON ME.AND HE SAID WHAT I CAN PROMISEIS INTEGRITY AND FIRMNESS.AND THIS IS A HUGE JOB.HUGE.>>I TRIED TO — WHENTEMPERAMENT GAME A BIG ISSUE, IWAS TRYING TO SEIZE OUT WHAT DOWE MEAN BY THAT?I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE ABILITYTO ADMIT A MISTAKE.I DON’T HAVE NUCLEAR CODES WHICHIS GOOD.BUT JOHN KENNEDY HAD TO DESCRIBEHOW THIS IS TAKING PLACE.YOU CAN’T JUST LET JOINT CHIEFSAND CIA COME IN AT YOU.IN 1962 —>>13 DAYS.>>EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE OF THENATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL IS THEDIRECT RESULT OF THE BAY OFPIGS.DISASTER, APRIL ’61, SALVATION,OCTOBER, 1962.THE NIGHT THE CUBAN MISSILECRISIS ENDED JACK KENNEDY SAIDTO MRS. KENNEDY I GUESS THIS ISTHE NIGHT I SHOULD GO TO THETHEATER BECAUSE IT WILL NEVERGET ANY BETTER THAN THIS.IT’S HEART BREAKING.BUT THAT WAS A LEVEL OFHUMILITY.ADMITTING A MISTAKE.ANOTHER, I BELIEF IS EMPATHY.WHEN IT’S YOUR POLITICALOPPONENT ON THE HILL OR LEADEROVERSEAS.GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH, ONEOF THE MOST EMPATHETIC MEN WHOEVER DREW BREATH, ONE OF THEREASONS THE COLD WAR ENDEDPEACEABLY IS WHEN THE BERLINWALL FELL, DESPITE WHAT GEORGEMITCHELL IN THE SENATE WANTED TODO, GEORGE BUSH WAS NOT GOING TOGO TO BERLIN, AND AS HE PUT ITDANCE ON THE WALL.HE SAID I DIDN’T WANT TO STICKIT IN GORBACHEV’S EAR.I THINK HE MEANT EYE.HE KNEW IF AN AMERICAN PRESIDENTSHOWED UP AT THE DOOR STEP ANDDECLARED VICTORY HE PLAYED APOLITICAL COST.WHEN HE HAD A COOKIE OR CANDYBAR, HE WOULD CUT IT IN HALF ANDGIVE IT TO THE OTHER KID.THERE IS A DIRECT LINE.>>FOR SOME PEOPLE, EMPATHY ISINBORN.WHEN I THINK ABOUT LINCOLN AS ALITTLE KID WHEN OTHER KIDS WOULDBE PUTTING HOT COALS ON TURTLESAND LOVING TO SEE THEM JUMPAROUND, HE NOT ONLY COULDN’TBEAR IT, BUT HE WROTE AN ESSAYIN SCHOOL ABOUT WHY IT WASWRONG.HE WAS FEELING EMPATHETICTOWARDS A TURTLE, THEN, YOUTHINK ABOUT THE GREAT SECONDINAUGURAL, THE IDEA IS EMPATHY,UNDERSTANDING NO MESSAGES HE’SHE DELIVERING DESPITE THE FACTTHE WAR IS COMING TO AN END.HE KNOWS THE TASK IS TO BRINGTHE SOUTH BACK INTO THE UNION.REACHING OUT TO THE SOUTH ANDTEDDY ROOSEVELT ONCE SAIDWITHOUT FELLOW FEELINGS HE WENTTO THE SLUMS, WALKING AROUND ASA POLICE COMMISSIONER TO SEEWHAT IT WAS LIKE TO LIVE IN ASLUM.HE SAID IT BECOMES NATURAL AFTERHIS WIFE AND MOTHER DIED ON THESAME DAY IN THE SAME HOUSE, HELEARNED WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE ACOWBOY AND RANCHER AND SAIDWITHOUT FELLOW FEELING ADEMOCRACY IS NOT GOING TO WORKAND PEOPLE SEEING OTHER THAT ISWHERE I FEAR WE’RE AT NOW.WHAT PREVENTED DEMOCRATS,PERHAPS, FROM UNDERSTANDING WHATTHE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR TRUMPWERE FEELING IS THAT THEY HADN’THAD CONNECTION WAS PEOPLE WHOFELT LIKE WAS PASSING THEM BY.NOW, PEOPLE HAPPY ARE NOTFEELING THE SAME SENSE OFEMPATHY TOWARDS THE PEOPLE THATLOST.THAT IS A WHAT WE HAVE TO FEEL.THERE WAS AN ARTICLE THE OTHERDAY IN A BOSTON MAGAZINE.I COME FROM NEW ENGLAND ANDPROBABLY DO THINK OF MYSELF ASLIBERAL THAT SAID 28-1 ARELIBERALS TO CONSERVATIVES INCOLLEGES AND SCHOOLS IN NEWENGLAND AND THAT KIDS WHO ARECONSERVATIVES IN SCHOOLS, THEYFEEL LIKE THEY HAVE TO STAY INTHE CLOSET AND NOT COME OUZ —OUT.AND SOMETIMES, PROFESSORS AREMAKING FUN OF TRUMP.IF IT STARTS AT THAT LEVEL, THENWE CAN’T EXPECT LEADERSHIP TO DOIT AT THE TOP.>>SO, JOHN?>>28 YEARS AGO YESTERDAY WHENBUSH 41 OPENED WITH A PRAYERHE’D WRITTEN HIMSELF ON SOMECARDS.IT BASICALLY SAID HELP US, LORD.TO USE POWER TO HELP OURSELVESBUT ENABLE US TO USE POWER TOHELP PEOPLE.NOT TO MAKE A GREAT SHOW IN THEWORLD.THERE IS A LEVEL OF A KIND OFDECENCY THERE THAT WE’RE SEEINGEXPRESSED THERE.WE CAN DO MORE, I THINK OF THEKINDER AND GENTLER RHETORIC.ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE TALKABOUT HOW WASHINGTON IS OUT OFTOUCH.I THINK IT’S OPPOSITE PROBABLY.WASHINGTON IS TOO MUCH A MIRROR.IF WE CAN FIGURE OUT A WAY TOANSWER WHAT ST. AUGUSTINE, YOUHAVEN’T HAD ST. AUGUSTINE THROWNAT YOU SATURDAY NIGHT IN AWHILE.I HOPE.BUT IT’S IN THE CITY OF GOD.HE SAYS A BEING UNITED BY THECOMMON OBJECTS OF THEIR LOVE.>>DO THEY HAVE TO BE RATIONAL?>>YES.UNITED BY COMMON OBJECTS OFTHEIR LOVE.WE HAVE TO ASK WHAT DO WE LOVEIN COMMON?WE BELIEVE WHAT WE WANT.AND THE TRIUMPH OF OPINION OFFACT IS ONE OF THE MOSTCORROSIVE THING.>>I WAS TALKING WITH A SENATOR,THEY FEEL THE SENATE IS ADYSFUNCTIONAL BODY.THE REASON IS THAT HE SAID WEARGUE OVER THE SOLUTION WE DON’TAGREE WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE.>>RIGHT.>>YOU’RE SAYING THAT IS AREFLECTION OF THE COUNTRY.>>WHAT MAKES THAT MORETROUBLING, TOO, IF YOU LOOK ATTHE CONGRESS MANY KNEW WHAT ITWAS LIKE TO HAVE TO GO ACROSSRACE AND LINES TO ACCOMPLISHSOMETHING TO ACCOMPLISHSOMETHING TOGETHER AS A GROUP.NOW, THAT LACK OF A COMMONMISSION IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOTIN WASHINGTON.MY SON, JOE, I PROBABLY TALKEDABOUT LAST TIME I WAS HERE.PROBABLY NOT.AFTER SEPTEMBER 11TH HE JUSTGRADUATED FROM HARVARD INHISTORY AND HE WAS IN BAGHDADAND GOT A BRONZE STAR, SENT BACKTO AFGHANISTAN, CAME OUT,DELAYING GOING TO HARVARD LAWSCHOOL 10 YEARS SAYING HE WOULDNEVER CHANGE IT FOR ANYTHING.NOTHING MADE HIM PROUDER THANBEING WITH 26 KIDS IN THATPLATOON.HE’S VERY MUCH ARGUING FOR ASORT OF NATIONAL SERVICE SOYOUNG PEOPLE CAN EXPERIENCE THATCONNECTION WITH ONE ANOTHER ANDTHAT SENSE OF A COMMON MISSION.>>THAT IS RIGHT.>>WHEN JOHN KERRY FIRST GAMETHE CHAIRMAN OF THE FOREIGNRELATIONS COMMITTEE IN 10, OR 11IT WAS THE 40TH ANNIVERSARY OFTHE FULLBRIGHT HEARINGS WHERE HECAME TO NATIONAL PROMINENCE BYSAYING HOW DO YOU ASK A MAN WHOIS THE LAST MAN TO DIE FOR AMISTAKE?AND WE’RE AT A ROUGH MOMENT INAFGHANISTAN.AND I WAS GOING TO WRITE ACOLUMN TO HAVE A SET OF HEARINGSABOUT AFGHANISTAN 10 YEARS ON.AND REALLY PUT A LOT INTO IT.MOST OF THE TIME WHEN YOU CALL ASENATOR AND SAY I THINK YOUSHOULD BE ON TV MORE, THEY’RERECEPTIVE.JOHN SAID I DON’T THINK IT WOULDWORK.I SAID WHY.HE SAID BECAUSE WE’D SPEND TOOMUCH TIME ARGUING ABOUT THEBASIC, FACTUAL ASSUMPTIONS.>>WOW.>>AND I THOUGHT JESUS CHRIST.IF WE CAN’T HAVE A DEBATE ABOUTWHAT IS NOW OUR LONGEST WAR,INCLUDING THE REV SOLUTION,WHICH DORIS’S SON IS SERVING HOWCAN WE DEAL WITH PROJECTINGFORCE IN A DEMOCRATIC ANDLEGITIMATE WAY?DOES ANYONE IN THIS ROOM BELIEVETHAT IF THERE WERE A SELECTIVESERVICE DRAFT WE’D BE IN THEWARS WE’RE INVOLVED IN TODAY?>>RIGHT.RIGHT.>>ONE MORE QUESTION TO YOU.IN THE DAYS AFTER THE ELECTION,I WAS TALKING WITH A GUY IBELIEVE WAS DISAPPOINTED IN THERESULTS.AND THIS MANNING SAYING WE’DLIKE TO IMAGINE PROGRESSCONTINUES AND WE’RE MOVINGFORWARD AND THAT WE’RE IMPROVINGA LITTLE BIT.HE SAID SOMETIMES, MAN KIND GOESBACK.LEAPS BACK IN TIME.AND WE DO HAVE A MOMENT IN WHICHA PRESIDENT IS BEING RELEASED BYANOTHER PRESIDENT WHOSE STARTINGPOINT FOR NEGOTIATION IS THAT IWANT TO UNDO EVERYTHING DONE.LET’S GO BACK EIGHT YEARS ANDHAVE THOSE DEBATES.DO YOU THINK PROGRESSDISCONTINUE FORWARD?THAT MARTIN LUTHER KING IS RIGHTABOUT THE ARC OF JUSTICE BEINGLONG BUT MOVING TOWARDS JUSTICE,OR DO WE SOMETIMES TAKE A LEAPBACKWARD?INTO DARKNESS.>>I THINK IT’S GIVEN HIM ACERTAIN KIND OF STABILITYLEAVING THIS OFFICE.WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM, THISSUMMER, EVERYTHING LOOKED MOREPOSITIVE IN A SENSE OF WHAT HISLEGACY WAS GOING TO BE.HEALTH CARE WOULD BE THERE ANDONE IMAGINES SOME OF THE THINGSPUT FORWARD HE’D BE REMEMBEREDFOR AND YET HE HASN’T LOST HISSPIRIT.BECAUSE HE HAS THAT PHILOSOPHY,SOCIETY, PEOPLE, THEY SOMETIMESSXAG ZAG.THERE IS A MOVE IN AMERICATOWARDS GREATER PROGRESS.LOOKING AT WHAT HAPPENED IN THEINNER CITIES IT LOOKED LIKEWE’RE BACK, WAY BACK, SO MUCHPROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE FORAFRICAN AMERICANS IN THEIR LAST15 YEARS AND 20 YEARS AND 30YEARS.THAT WE FORGET SOMETIMES.THAT IS PART OF THE ODDNESS OFTHE ELECTION F LISTENING TO WHATMR. TRUMP IS SAYING, THE PEOPLELEFT BEHIND BY MANUFACTURING ANDWHO FEEL THEY LOST THEIR SENSEOF SELF ESTEEM, THEY NEEDSOMETHING DIFFERENT.THE COUNTRY IS BETTER NOW.YOU WOULD THINK IT HAD GONE WAYDOWN HILL BECAUSE OF THE WAY THEELECTION WAS.WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT AMERICA, ITHINK ABOUT THOSE DEBATES WITHSTEVEN DOUGLAS.HE SAID HE THOUGHT DOUGLAS WASTRYING TO MAKE US GO BACKWARD.HE SAID IF YOU’RE TRYING TOPERFECT THE UNION YOU’RE GOINGTO BE AGHAST BETWEEN WHERE YOUWANTED TO BE F YOU KEEP MOVINGTOWARD THAT, IF YOU SOMETIMES GOINTO A HORIZONTAL WAY, YOU’LLKEEP GOING THAT WAY.AND I GUESS I BELIEVE WHEN YOULOOK AT HISTORY JUST HAVING BEENA DODGER FAN AND RED SOX FAN FORMANY YEARS I HAD TO BE ANOPTIMIST.IT’S A CHARACTER TRAIT.I SEE IT IN AMERICAN HISTORY ANDCHARACTER.>>WHAT DO YOU THINK YANKEEFANS?>>I KNOW HOW TO LOOSE.I’M A SOUTHERNER AND CHRISTIAN.THE DUTY OF A CHRISTIAN IS NOTJUST TO SUCCEED BUT FAILCHEERILY?THAT IS ME.THE QUESTION SR WE FALLING BACKNOW?AND CAN THERE WITH A FALL BACK?IT WAS SAID HISTORY TAKES NOLEAP EX — HISTORY LIKE NATUREKNOWS NO LEAPS, WE DON’T GOVASTLY FORWARD IN ONE MOMENT.>>OF COURSE.>>WE GO BACKWARD.SO WE DO WHAT YOU DO FOR ALIVING YOU KNOW ALMOST ALL GREATMOMENTS ARE CONTINGENT.AND JFK SAID DURING CUBANMISSILE CRISIS, GOD KNOWS WHATIS GOING TO HAPPEN.THERE IS ALWAYS A SON OF A —THAT DOESN’T GET THE MEMO.IF ABRAHAM LINCOLN HADN’T BEENWHERE HE WAS IN 61 WE WOULD HAVEHAD A DIFFERENT RESULT.IF LYNDON JOHNSON WASN’T WHEREHE WAS ON BLOODY SUNDAY, WEWOULD HAVE HAD A DIFFERENTRESULT.YOU NEEDED SOMEONE WHO TWOSIGNIFICANT FILL PLYINGS WEREACTORS PROJECTING A REALITY OFTHE WORLD WE COULDN’T SEE BUTWANTED TO.RONALD REAGAN AND JOHN PAUL II.THEY WERE ABLE TO HELP BRINGCOMMUNISM DOWN.>>YOU CAN ADD FDR TO THAT.HE THOUGHT HE WAS A GOOD OF ANACTOR AS ORSON WELLS.>>AND HE WOULD LOOK APPROVINGLYAND SAY THAT WAS THE GARBO ATME.>>WE DO THIS AT BAR MITZVAHS.IF YOU NEED US.WELLS ONCE SAID, SORRY.SO, YES.>>I WAS SUPPOSED TO KEEP HIM INLINE.>>WAIT UNTIL WE GET TO FOUNDINGFATHERS.>>I THINK THIS IS A —>>THIS IS A QUESTION AND ANSWERSESSION.>>I THINK IT’S POSSIBLE TO FALLOFF WHAT FDR SAID, QUOTING ANDSAID THE LINE OF CIVILIZATIONMOVES FORWARD.I DO BELIEVE THAT.IT REQUIRES ME TO SAY DARKNESSIS ALWAYS NEARBY.THAT IS WHY WHAT YOU’RE DOINGHERE, BY COMING TO LISTEN TOTALK IS SO IMPORTANT.>>COULD WE HAVE A MOMENT WHEREDIFFERENT GROUPS ARE PUSHINGTHEMSELVES FORWARD?MAKING THEMSELVES HEARD?FROM 2008, A DIFFERENT SET OFPEOPLE IN 2016.AND.>>WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUTWATCHING MARCHES TODAY OF WOMENNOT ONLY IN WASHINGTON BUT ALLOVER THE COUNTRY, WAS THAT INCONTRAST TO THE PROTESTS THATTOOK PLACE AT THE INAUGURATIONYID, WHICH WAS RANDOM ANDNOTHING THEY’RE MARCHING FOR ANDIT WAS SAD, TODAY SEEMED TO MEWHATEVER YOU FEEL, IT’S VALUEVANNIZING PEOPLE TO FIGHT FORTHEIR RIGHTS NOW AND TO OPPOSEIN A REAL WAY, THEY’RE ARGUINGSOME SIGNS WERE ANTITRUMP.AND I CARE ABOUT REPRODUCTIVERIGHTS OR ABOUT PLANNEDPARENTHOOD AND SO THEY’REARGUING FOR GOALS.THERE WAS A SUFFICIENT RAJETTPROTEST AT WOOD ROW WILSON’SINAUGURATION.SO IF WHAT HAPPENS, AND THIS ISWHAT IS INTERESTING, IS THATOBAMA SAID HE’S GOING TO STAYOUT OF THINGS UNLESS CERTAINTHINGS HAPPENED.AND THERE ARE OTHER ONES.AND I THINK THAT IS TRUE FOR THECOUNTRY.YOU KNOW?WE HAVE TO GIVE TRUMP A CHANCERIGHT NOW.WE HAVE TO HOPE THAT MOMENT WILLPIVOT.AND BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH THISEXTRAORDINARY RESPONSIBILITY ANDINSTEKTS WILL BE HELPED BY THEPEOPLE AROUND HIM.IF.>>ANDREW JACKSON ACCUSED HISEEPTS OF BEING ELITIST AND OUTOF TOUCH AND IT WAS SORT OFTRUE.HIS OPPONENTS REALIZE THEY HADNEEDED TO BE MORE DEMOCRATIC ANDORGANIZED AND JACKSON FOUND THEDEMOCRATIC PARTY AND OPPONENTSFOUNDED THE WIG PARTY.AND I THINK PEOPLE WHO HATEDANDREW JACKSON WOULD HAVE TO BEGRATEFUL TO HIM FOR.>>I MEAN PEOPLE HAVE LITTLETIME TODAY BECAUSE OF HOW MUCHTIME, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLEARE SPENDING ON FACEBOOK ORE-MAIL OR WHATEVER THEY’RE DOINGTHAT DOESN’T ALLOW THEM TO COMETOGETHER TO — THEY DID GO FROMBERNIE SANDERS BUT THEN, I’M NOTSURE THOSE PEOPLE WHO AREPROTESTING RIGHT AFTER TRUMP WONACTUALLY DIDN’T VOTE SOME OFTHEM.PEOPLE ARE SAYING HAVE YOU VOTEDAND THEY DIDN’T.IF THIS GALVANIZES MORE PEOPLEIN A WAY, THAT IS A GOOD THINGTHAT COULD COME OUT OF IT.>>ONE QUICKLY BECAUSE OF WHEREWE ARE, JEFFERSON’S POINT IS MANSHOULD BE A PARTICIPANTS IN THEPOLITICS OF THE STATE ANDNATIONS NOT JUST ELECTIONS BUTEVERY DAY.>>THANK YOU VERY MUCH.SO WE’RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAKAND TAKE QUESTIONS.THANKS FOR JOINING US SO FAR.IT’S BEEN GREAT.REALLY APPRECIATE IT.>>RICHARD T.THINKING OF PRESIDENTS YOUPERSONALLY SPENT TIME WITH.THAT IS COOL.WE’RE ON STAGE WITH PEOPLE WHOPERSONALLY SPENT TIME WITHPRESIDENTS.DORIS CAN YOU NAME ONECHARACTERISTIC DONALD TRUMPMIGHT SHARE WITH LBJ?>>COARSENESS.NO.LBJ HAD AN UNUSUAL WAY OFSPEAKING WHEN TALKING.IT’S NOT IN PUBLIC BUT PRIVATE.IT WAS ENTERTAINING ANDSOMETIMES, WITH DONALD TRUMPIT’S INTERESTING.>>DEFINITELY INTERESTING.>>YES.NO.I MEAN, AND SHORT AND STRAIGHTFORWARD AND I DON’T KNOW WHETHERHE TELLS STORIES.THAT IS AN IMPORTANT PART, ITHINK OF LEADERSHIP TO BE ABLETO TELL STORIES AND LBJ LIKED TOENGAGE IN HYPERBOLE.I REMEMBER, HE DIDN’T WANT TOSWIM, JUST WANTED TO TALK.SO THERE WERE RAFTS WITHFLOATING MEMO PADS.AND THAT DAY, THE PRESIDENTMENTIONED HE HAD A GREAT, GREATGRAND FATHER WHO DIED AT THEBATTLE OF ALAMO.HE SAID HE DIDN’T HAVE A GREATGRANDFATHER WHO DIED AT ALAMO.HE MUST HAVE WANTED TO.I SAID HOW CAN YOU DO THAT?HE SAID THESE JOURNALISTS ARESUCH STICKLERS FOR DETAIL.HE TELLS ME HIS GREAT GREATGRAND FATHER DIED AT THE BATTLEOF SAN JACINTO AND HOW THAT WASMORE IMPORTANT IN THE ALAMOUNTIL I FOUND OUT THE GUY HADN’TDIE DIED THERE, EITHER.>>CAN YOU NAME A CHARACTERISTICDONALD TRUMP GEORGE HW BUSH?>>JESUS.I KNEW THAT WAS COMING.>>HONESTLY, NO.I’M NOT TRYING TO BE CLEVER.I BELIEVE THE MOVEMENT IN 30YEARS FROM GEORGE HERBERT WALKERBUSH TO DONALD TRUMP JUST PROVESDARLING.AND GEORGE BUSH PUT THE COUNTRYFIRST AS OFTEN AS HE COULD.HE WAS NOT PERFECT.HE SAID TO ME POLITICS IS NOT APURE UNDERTAKING IF YOU WANT TOWIN.IT’S NOT.HE RAN A BRUTAL CAMPAIGN IN1988.IN WASHINGTON HE TRIED TO CREATEA CULTURE OF COMPROMISE.OPPOSING 1964 CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIN TEXAS, UNCOMFORTABLE REALITYTO TALK ABOUT NOW.IN 1968 WHEN ACTUALLY INCONGRESS HE VOTED FOR FAIRHOUSING.TO ME, THE DRAMA OF GEORGE WAS,IS THAT HE DID ALMOST HE HAD TODO TO ACHIEVE POWER BUT WHEN HEACHIEVED POWER HE DID ALMOST HECOULD TO DO THE RIGHT THING N APOLITICAL LIFE I DON’T THINKTHERE IS A MUCH WARMER WAY TOLOOK AT IT.HE’S NOT A PREACHER, APHILOSOPHER.CONSISTENCY ISN’T THE TEST FORHIM.TO ME, IT’S EFFECTIVENESS.IT’S KIND OF MORAL CLARITY WHENTHINGS ARE DARK.BUT NO.I DON’T SEE THAT.AND THEY COME FROM DIFFERENTWORLDS IN THAT DONALD TRUMP IS APRODUCT AND WOULD NOT BEPRESIDENT IF IT WERE NOT FORREALITY TELEVISION.GEORGE HW BUSH, YOU KNOW, HELIKED DANA CARVY’S IMITATION OFHIM.>>DANA SAID IT WAS EASY,MR. ROGERS TRYING TO BE JOHNWAYNE.SO HERE — HERE IS A DIFFERENCETRUMP TWEETED TWICE FURIOUSABOUT ALEC BALDWIN’S PORTRAYALOF HIM IN SATURDAY NIGHT LIFE.WHEN HE LOST IN 1992,DEVASTATING PERSONAL LOSS.LISTENING TO AUDIO DIARY ENTRYIS TEAR PROVOKING.THE DEPTHS THAT IT PUT BUSH IN.HE FELT HE LET EVERYONE DOWNFULHE WANTED TO LIFT STAFF SPIRITS.SO HE INVITED DANA CARVY TOSPEND THE NIGHT AT THE WHITEHOUSE AND PERFORM IN THE EASTROOM.>>PERFORM GEORGE BUSH?>>YEAH.ONE GUY ATTACKING ALEC BALDWIN,THE OTHER GUY INVITED HIS ALECBALDWIN TO COME TO THE WHITEHOUSE.>>DO YOU THINK THERE ARESIMILARITIES BETWEEN TRUMP’SAMERICA FIRST APPROACH ANDISOLATIONISM AFTER WORLD WAR I?>>THERE IS A SIMILARITY OFLANGUAGE BECAUSE CHARLESLINDBERGH USE THAT HAD PHRASE,AMERICA FIRST.>>I THINK SO.BRIEFLY.THE ICE SOLATION.>>IT WAS A TARIFF PASSED.>>PEOPLE ARE WITH ME.OKAY?THEY DON’T THINK IT’S ACOCKTAIL.>>EXACTLY.DOUBLE.>>RADIO GUYS.THEY TALK A LOT.>>THE NEUTRALITY ACTS WHICH FDRHAD TO FIGHT STARTING WITH WHODESTROYED THE DEAL IN 40 ANDTHEN, 41 IS AL FOR PEACE.AND REMEMBER, PERSONAL OBSESSIONOF MINE, WE DID NOT DECLARE WARON NAZI GERMANY ON THE 8TH OFDECEMBER, 1941.>>TRUE.>>WE WAITED UNTIL HITLERDECLARED WAR ON US ON THURSDAY,THE 11TH.AND WE DECLARED ON THE 12TH.ROOSEVELT WAS WORRIED THATAMERICA FIRST WAS DEAD IN THEPACIFIC BUT NOT YET DEAD IN THEEUROPEAN WAR.SO THERE IS A FEAR THAT WEEK.OF COURSE FDR, CHURCH HILL CAMEAND THEY HAD CHRISTMAS TOGETHER.>>I THINK THE WORRY SOME THINGABOUT THE RESEARCH OFNATIONALISM WHICH IS PART OF THETHING IS THAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKINGAT THEIR OWN INTERESTS.WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITHALLIANCES?WHAT CAME OUT OF WORLD WAR IIAFTER EXPERIENCE ROOSEVELT HADHAD TO FIGHT AGAINST THATAMERICA FIRST.THE EXPERIENCE OF WORLD WAR IHAD BEEN TRAUMATIC AND A WARFOUGHT AND NOBODY UNDERSTOODWHAT IT HAD BEEN FOUGHT FOR.SO THERE WAS A REASON THEY FELTTHAT.THINGS WERE HAPPENING EUROPETHAT HAD TO BE DEALT WITH.IF THERE WAS A WAR IT WAS WORLDWAR II.WE LOST YEARS OF PREPARATION.WHATS OUT IS THE UNITED NATIONS,NATO AND THAT IS WHAT MADEAMERICA THE WORLD LEADER WEBECAME.IF WE UNDO THOSE ALLIANCESAGAIN, I DON’T KNOW WHAT HAPPENSTO AMERICA’S LEADERSHIP IN THEWORLD.>>THAT IS NOT JUSTISOLATIONISM.AND THE PRESIDENT.THE PRESIDENT SAID AND PART OFTHAT IS THE NATIONALISM DORIS ISTALKING ABOUT.WHAT LED TO SECOND WORLD WAR WASTHE CRASH AND PRESSURES HERETHAT WAS THE RISE OF NATIONALISMTHAT EMPIRES BROKE UP.AFTER WORLD WAR I.AND THIS GOES BACK TO HISTORYDOESN’T REPEAT ITSELF, BUT DOESRHYME.>>THAT IS ONE OF THE GREATCOMMENTS I DON’T UNDERSTAND WHATTHEY MEAN.>>DON’T YOU THINK M TRUMPRESTRAINED BY THE SYSTEM?>>HASN’T HOPED SO FAR.THE GREAT HOPE IS THAT MADSONNIN DOES IT.>>HE’S GOING TO GO OFF NOW.>>THAT IS THE HOPE.BUT YOU KNOW, SINCE TR, REALLY,LINCOLN, THERE IS LINE OFJACKSON AND LINCOLN, TR, FDR.PRESIDENCY HAS BECOME WHAT ISKENNEDY’S PHRASE, VITAL CENTEROF ACTION.IT’S THE CENTER OF OURCONSCIOUSNESS.OF OUR CULTURE.IN A WAY.I HOPE ARTICLE 1, 2, 3 WILL DOWHAT THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO DO.BUT WE HAVE A SYSTEM INWASHINGTON NOW WHERE THERE IS ALIVE DEBATE THAT YOU SHOULDLEAVE THE SUPREME COURT.>>BY FILIBUSTERING ANY NOMINEE.>>MY VIEW IS THAT IT’S BETTERBECAUSE WE HAVEN’T TALKED ABOUTTHIS ENOUGH.THE FEDERAL JUDICIARY OF 1789.>>I HOPE YOU HAVE SLEEPINGBAGS.>>I WONNEDER IF THAT FIRSTQUESTIONER IS BACK FROM THE WAR.WE HAD 6, 7, 10, THEN NINE.MY POINT IS THAT IT’S A SYSTEMTHAT IS ALREADY IN DEEPCORROSION.IT’S NOT FUNCTIONING EVEN BEFORETHIS GUY GOT TO TOWN.>>WHAT DO YOU THINK?>>I BY PART OF THE DIFFICULTYFOR PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THAT YOUCAN FIRE PEOPLE, YOU CAN GIVEVOICES TO PEOPLE WHO DO WELL.I THINK HE’S GOING TO COME UPAGAIN, ISN’T THERE A SAYING THEYSAID HE WAS A SAD MAN?AS A MILITARY LEADER HE CAN GIVEORDERS?THAT IS NOT RIGHT?>>SHURM ONSAID FOR ICE.>>IT WASN’T TRUE.>>THERE IS SOME STORY THATTRUMAN LOVES TO TELL HE’S GOINGTO WE CAN SEE PEOPLE GOING ANDICEN HOWER SAYS TO TRUMAN, I WASAFRAID I WOULD OUTSHINE YOU.AND TRUMAN SAID YOU DIDN’T COMEBECAUSE I DIDN’T INVITE YOU.>>DO YOU THINK THERE HAS BEEN APRESIDENT THAT BROUGHTDISRUPTION AND CHANGE OFDIRECTION LIKE MR. TREFRP?>>IF ARGUE, YOU’VE HADOPPRESSION IN ALMOST AT ROCKROCK BOTTOM AND THE IDEA HADSTIFLED HERBERT HOOVER WHO WAS AGOOD MAN, I THINK, HE DIDN’TBELIEVE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENTSHOULD AND COULD HAVE A ROLL SOIT WAS A REAP AND FDR CHANGEDTHE SYSTEM.MADE GOVERNMENT AN ACTIVEPLAYER, THEN, YOU CAN ARGUEREAGAN CAME IN ARGUINGGOVERNMENT WAS THE PROBLEM NOTTHE SOLUTION.SO IT MEANS A RANGE.THE RIN PARTY HAD BEEN THE PROBUSINESS, POLITICAL BOSS PARTY.AND TEDDY SAW DANGERS WHEREMONOPOLYS WERE BEING BUILT UP BYLARGER COMPANIES AND SO WECERTAINLY HAVE SEEN IT.>>WHAT ABOUT ANDREW JACKSON?WAS HE A DISRUPTER?>>WELL, YES.IT WAS ALMOST MORE IN STYLE THANIN SUBSTANCE.THAT WE THROUGH HIM OFF.AS YOU KNOW.PEOPLE THINK HE CLEANED OUT THEBUREAUCRACY.HE DID IT WITH SKILL AND CARE.THE BANK WAS NOT LIKE A FEDERALRESERVE.THE BANK OF THE UNITED STATESTOOK TAXPAYERS DEPOSITS AND KEPTMEMBERS ON RETAINER SO HE WASN’TTOO FAR OFF.I WOULD SAY 1801.JEFFERSON CALLED IT THEREVOLUTION OF 1800.IT WAS IN THE HOUSE.AND BURR HAD THE SAME NUMBER OFELECTORAL VOTES.WHAT MILTON SAID HE’S SOMEONENOT GOING TO TEAR EVERYTHING UP.AND THAT IS WHAT IS ABOUT THIS.IT’S LIKE “NEW YORK TIMES” NOTALLOWED TO USE THE WORDUNPRECEDENTED ON THE GROUNDS OFEVERYTHING ULTIMATELYUNPRECEDENTED.WE DON’T KNOW HOW MUCHBOMBASTIC, ODDLY TEMPER MENTALCHALLENGING VERNACULAR OFTRUMP’S CANDIDACY UNTILYESTERDAY, THIS AFTERNOON, ISGOING TO ATTEMPT TO TRANSLATEINTO DELIBERATENESS.>>SOMEONE QUESTIONED HIM ABOUTTHE FACT IN THE HEARINGS, HADDISAGREED BUT THEY DID.HE TWEETED GREAT JOB, EVERYBODY.NOW, SO THERE MAY BE ADISTINCTION BETWEEN HISUPSETMENT WHEN IT’S A PERSONALATTACK ON HIM, VERSES ATTACK ONHIS IDEAS WHICH MEANS WE MAY INTHE KNOW WHAT IDEAS HE REALLYHOLDS DEAR.THAT IS WHAT WE NEED TO FIND OUTTO SEE IF WE CAN MAKE THATDISTINCTION.>>I HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP PUT ABUST OF THEODORE ROOSEVELT PUTIN THE OVAL OFFICE.WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE?>>I COULD SEE WHY.>>A MANLY MAN.A MAN WHO SPOKE IN SHORT, PUNCHYLANGUAGE THAT THE PEOPLE LOVED.HE CAME TO THE PRESIDENTSY IN ATIME WHEN THE MEDIA WAS RIPE FORHIM.THAT IS WHAT IS INTERESTING.LINCOLN WAS LUCKY TO HAVE HISSPEECHES REPRINTED IN FULL.TEDDY IS THE PERFECT CHARACTER,I MEAN, A CARTOON CHARACTER ANDSAYS FUN THINGS.THE PEOPLE KNOW WHAT I’M SAYING.HE SAID SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY ABIG STICK.HE GAVE MAXWELL HOUSE THE SLOGAN“GOOD TO THE VERY LAST DROP”.HE WAS A FIGHTER AND FOUGHT THEESTABLISHMENT.ONE OF TRUMP’S ADVISOR S WASLIKENING THIS SITUATION TO THESITUATION OF 20TH CENTURY.SO HE WAS SAYING IT’S GOING TOTAKE A WHILE TO GET THE ECONOMYMOVING INTO THAT DIRECTION.THEY’D BE INTERESTING CHARACTERSEXCEPT TEDDY WAS ABLE TO CHANNELTHAT ENERGY INTO MODERATE ANDRATIONAL ACTION.THE THINGS HE DID, THEREPUBLICAN PARTY WAS ABLE TOPUSH THEM ALONG.THAT IS HOW HE HAD A GREATRELATIONSHIP FROM THE PRESS.THEY WERE NECESSARY TO SHOWCONDITIONS SO PEOPLE WOULDUNDERSTAND WHY THINGS HAD TOCHANGE.>>HE WANTED PEOPLE TOINVESTIGATE YOU AND AGENCIESUNDER HIS CONTROL?>>ABSOLUTELY.>>IF YOU FIND SOMETHINGTRUTHFUL ARE YOU CONCERNED ONTHE PRESS OR ACCESS MIGHT BESHUT DOWN?>>EVERYONE HERE IS A MEMBER OFTHE MEDIA.IF YOU HAVE A SOCIAL MEDIAACCOUNT YOU HAVE CAPACITY TOSPEAK TO THE WORLD.IF WHAT YOU HAS TO SAY DRAW ASTENSION, IT COULD REACH AS MANYPEOPLE AS WALTER CRONKITE.AND TO SOME EXTENT, 20TH CENTURYAS VIEW OF THE PRESS AS ANEUTRAL SEEMING ORGAN IS APRODUCT OF THE ERA.IN ONE REASON, 40 PAPERS HADOTHER POSSIBLE PARTYAFFILIATION.IF HE HAD A BUSINESS MODEL THATBECAME MORE CENTRAL.I THINK SO CALLED PRESSCONFERENCES STARTED BACK ATMARAHGO AND TWO WEEKS AGO, IGUESS HAD MORE IN COMMON WITHINFOMERCIALS.SUPPORTERS WERE CLAPPING.THAT IS OUTSIDE OF THE BOUNDS ITSEEMS WHAT PRESIDENTS SHOULD DO.>>PRESIDENTS NEED PRESSCONFERENCES TO KEEP THEM HONESTWITH THEMSELVES.AND THE PRESS IS ASKINGQUESTIONS AND TEDDY IS BUMPINGAROUND.HE UNDERSTOOD THAT, HE SAIDTHEY’RE GOING TO CRITICIZE HIMAND THERE ARE CHANNELS AND HESAID HE PLACED HIMSELF IN THEMIDDLE OF EVERY ACTION IN EVERYBATTLE OF THE WAR AND SHOULDHAVE CALLED IT ALONE IN CUBA.THIS IS A FAMOUS JOURNALIST.HE WRITES THEM A LETTER AND SAYSI REGRET TO TELL YOU MY WIFE ANDCHILDREN ADORED YOUR TITLE FORMY BOOK.NOW, YOU OWE ME SOMETHING.COME VISIT ME.I HAVE WANTED TO ME YOU.YOU HAVE TO REALIZE YOU NEEDTHEM, THEY NEED YOU.>>IN 1992, PAT BUCHANAN GETTING40% OF THE VOTE IN NEWHAMPSHIRE.WE FORGET THIS.RUSH LIMBAUGH WAS KILLING BUSH.LIMBAUGH HAD GONE NATIONAL IN88.REALLY BIG BY 92.BUSH AND ROGER ALES TO BROKER AMEETING.HE CARRIES LIND BAU’S BAGUPSTAIRS TO THE LINCOLN BEDROOM.AND SPENDS THE EVENING WITH HIM.AND.>>YOU MADE A GAFFE.YOU’RE IN THE LINCOLN BEDROOMAND HE SPENDS THE EVENING WITHHIM?>>DORIS?YOU ARE A NEW ENGLAND LIBERAL.I AM A POOR BOY FROM TEXAS.I AM MORE OPEN MINDED THAN YOU.[ LAUGHTER “AS OUR FRIEND TIMRUSSERT USED TO SAY WHAT ACOUNTRY.”>>USA.DID WE HAVE A CONVERSATION?I CAN’T REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS.ARE YOU MAKING A POINT?>>OH.OH.ANOTHER POINT.YES.AS SOMEONE WHO SLEEPS WITH ASPEECH WRITER.>>YOU STARTED IT.BILL SAPPHIRE USED TO SAY THESTATE OF THE UNION IS IMPORTANTBECAUSE IT’S THE ONLY WAY TO GETFEDERAL AGENCIES TO DECIDEANYTHING.>>IT’S TRUE.>>THE PRESIDENT HAD TO HAVESOMETHING TO ANNOUNCE.SO THE SPEECH FORCEDBUREAUCRATIC CLARITY.>>RIGHT.>>THIS IS EXCITING.>>I’M DOING DOLLY AND JAMESMADISON.>>IS THAT GREAT?>>WHAT I WANT TO DO IS MADISONHAS BEEN LITERALLY ANDFIGURATIVELY OVERSHADOWED.HE’S A LITTLE GUY.ABOUT 54 AS YOU KNOW FROM ORANGECOUNTY.AND LOST BETWEEN WASHINGTON ANDHAMILTON AND JEFFERSON.ALL HAVE BEEN REDISCOVERED ANDCELEBRATED RIGHTLY.BASICALLY DROVE OPPOSITION PARTYOUT OF BUSINESS.AND SO I WANT TO TRY TO FIGUREOUT WHAT KIND OF A POLITICIAN.HOW DID HE PROJECT ENOUGH SENSEOF CONFIDENCE AND AUTHORITY TOBE PART OF THAT VIRGINIADYNASTY?AND TO SHAPE, ONE WAR, HE VERYMUCH WANTED THE WAR OF 1812 TOBE A WAR THE REPUBLIC WOULD BEPROUD OF.AND IN DOLLARS, JUST AMAZINGFUN.I’M IN HOFF WITH HER.>>IT’S SAID IN PRESIDENTIALELECTIONS THAT THE TALLERCANDIDATE TENDS TO WIN.DID HE RUN AGAINST SOMEONE 52?>>NO.THAT IS TYPICAL NPRSENSATIONALISM.>>SO THAT IS WHAT WE’RE KNOWNFOR?>>I KNOW IT.>>GO, GET THE CLICKS.>>I THOUGHT IT WAS “INSIDEEDITION”.>>WARNING.>>I SAID WHAT I’M WORKING ON,MAINLY CHAPPED IS THAT AFTERHAVING DONE LYNDON JOHNSON ANDKENNEDYS AND FDR AND TAFT, IT’SHARD TO FIGURE OUT WHERE I GOAFTER THAT.I CAN’T GO BACK TO FILLMORE ANDIT TAKES ME LONGER TO WRITE THEBOOK ABOUT WORLD WAR II THAN THEWAR TO BE FOUGHTMENT I’M NOTSURE I CAN DO SOMETHING LIKEGEORGE WASHINGTON OR WAY BACKTHERE.SO, INSTEAD.WHAT I DECIDED TO DO IS BRING MYFOUR GUYS TOGETHER.I PROMISED IT WOULD BE 350PAGES.I FEEL LIKE IT’S EXCITINGBECAUSE I WAS A ONCE UPON A TIMEACADEMIC AND I DID ANALYZETHINGS AND I LOVED POLITICALSCIENCE AND SO PART OF IT IS ARETRAITS INHERITED OR DEVELOPED?I’M TAKING EACH GUIDE WHEN THEYFIRST RUN FOR OFFICE AND TRYINGTO LOOK AT THEM SO THEY CAN SEECONFUSION AND FEAR AND WE CANIDENTIFY WITH HEM IN A WAY IT’SHARD TO IDENTIFY ONCE BECOMINGPRESIDENT.AND THEY ALL WENT THROUGHSOMETHING THAT CHANGED THEM.AND FDR HAD POLIO AND LYNDONJOHNSON, SOUNDS LIKE IT’S NOTSIMILAR BUT LOST AN ELECTION FORHIM, SEEMED LIKE THE END OF HISLIFE.THEY COME THROUGH IT WITH ASENSE OF PURPOSE AND AMBITION ISDOUBLED.WHEN YOU GET POWER, WHAT DO YOUDO WITH IT?DOES THE MAN MAKE THE TIMES ORTIME MAKE THE FAN?WE’VE BEEN LUCKY RIGHT PEOPLESEEM TO BE IN THE RIGHT PLACE ATTHE MOST-IMPORTANT TIME.AND LATER, WORLD WAR II.IT’S FUN.I PROMISE IT WILL BE DONE BY THEEND OF THE YEAR.IF YOU DON’T SEE ME FOR A WHILE,IT WILL BE HAPPENING.>>JOHN I’M GOING TO GIVE YOUTHE LAST WORD.IS IT TIME LIKE THIS IN THE NEWSA GOOD TIME TO WRITE ABOUT THEPAST?HE I THINK SO.THE FUTURE IS UNKNOWABLE.BUT THE PAST SHOULD GIVE HOPE.OUR STORY IS OBSTACLES OVERCOME.WE SHOULDN’T LOOK UP FROMFIGURES OF THE PAST ADORINGLY ORLOOK DOWN AND FEEL SUPERIOR TOTHEM BUT LOOK THEM IN THE EYE.TAKE THEM FOR WHAT THEY WERE.AND THEN BY HUMANIZING THEM WEDON’T PUT THEM ON PEDESTALS.WE’RE ABLE TO LEARN MORE FROMTHEM.IF THEY’RE AS DRIVEN BY APPETITEAND SIN, AS WE ARE, AND YET,LEFT THE COUNTRY A LITTLE BETTERTHEN THE REST IS GONE, TOO.>>THANK DORIS AND JOHN.>>THIS WAS GREAT.REALLY FUN.>>WOW.>>THIS BROADCAST OF THE

2 thoughts on “Jon Meacham and Doris Kearns Goodwin at The Richmond Forum

  1. Marred only by disappointing snide political comments about our new President, the program of Goodwin and Meacham was fascinating, brilliant and witty. It seems to me that empathy is precisely what got Trump elected, reaching out to a part of the electorate "intellectual aristocrats" totally ignore, that is Middle America.

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